Lorna Kleidman | MSIC, World Record Holder, Personal Trainer

Welcome to the platform podcast where we talk to coaches, athletes, experts, and real people to learn about their approaches to training, nutrition, mindset, and much more. I'm your host, Jordan Kunde-Wright, founder and head coach of the Twin Cities Catabell Club. And I'm on a mission to help others build sustainable, healthy lifestyles. On this episode, my guest is none other than Lorna Clyman. She is a legend in kettlebell sport. She is a master of sport in a national class, a multiple world record holder. And in this episode, we get into her background in kettlebell sport, as well as her dropping some knowledge on me about the origins of kettlebells that I did not know of. And we talk about her ideas on how we could potentially grow the sport in the states, as well as what she's been up to in the time of COVID and her latest venture. I want to take a moment to say thank you. I am incredibly grateful that you listen to this podcast. And if you haven't already, please be sure to leave a rating and review of the platform podcast in your app of choice, share it on social media, and support my work by supporting our sponsors. You'll find affiliate links in the episode notes. Now without further ado, let's get into it with Lorna Clyman. Alright, welcome into this episode of the platform podcast. My guest today needs no introduction, but I'm going to give her one anyways. She is the legend Lorna Clyman. She is a personal trainer, a master of sport in kettlebell sport and a snatch expert if I do say so myself. Thank you so much for coming on Jordan. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited. And I was listening to all the podcasts in the past few weeks and you've got all the single name athletic stars on a Salomon and Carter and Juan and Douglas and Jennifer. And I'm like, you know, I mean, everybody knows who those people are. And so I they're all good friends and I respect and love them all. So I'm really honored to be in such great company. Thank you. Well, now and now I've got Lorna. I mean, you're a single name athlete too. I mean, let's, I mean, let's, let's just set the context for everybody. Lorna is a world record holder in snatch. She with the 24 kilo kettlebell. She can out, she can out snatch me and I literally am two of her as far as body weight is concerned. So she is, she is fantastic with with the 24 kilo kettlebell. What's your personal record for snatch now? So far, I'm up to 169. It was 24. That is incredible. And you get two, two, I think 207 earlier this week with the 20, which is a new absolute national record. And that, that felt really good. Yeah, my training. You made it look easy. That's for sure. Huh? You made it look easy. That's for sure. I saw. So late the past year, my training has been so good and things have just come together. And now I realize that it doesn't have to be such a struggle. You don't have to fight to the death on the platform. I know what that's like. But now it's you fight the most during training. And then now in the past year, when I go to reach my personal best or submit competition video, it's, it's just something's clicking where it's now it's easy because the training is so thorough and appropriate. So that was like, it was a nice work for it. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. It's where you want to be. I mean, that's where that's what you train for years to get to. It's like, it's where you want to be. So when those bigger numbers come and it's not so arduous. And you feel like, oh, okay. That wasn't so bad. I, you know, and you don't want to get a nap afterward. Then you know, it's good. That's one of my favorite parts though. You get the best, you get the best sleep. So when you, when you talk about your, your training being thorough and your prep being your prep being thorough. Do you, do you typically train with heavier weights than what you compete with or do you train above pace or what's, what's kind of your approach to making sure you have that, that base to be, I mean, sustaining 20 RPMs for a full 10 minutes is a serious undertaking with any weight. But you do it with, with really, really high weights, you know, relative to your body weight. So how do you prepare for that? Well, it's based on what my coach gives me. And I've been with nine different coaches through the past 12 years. And I've had a, she's Alexandra Visalaya and she's just great for me, for me. So we do, I do lift some heavier than competition weight. But a lot of what I do is sub maximal or under competition weight, high, high volume. And volume being for the total session or volume being without putting the bell down or a little bit of both are both. Okay. It depends on the day. Do you get, do you get, when you get your program, you get, like, you get it by email and you're like, oh, God, I never, I never know until I open it. I'm not anymore. You know, I try, I've tried to, I've tried to train myself to not have that mental reaction because I, yeah, that distraction, that, you know, reaction distraction. I try to just look at it and say, okay, this is, let's see what happens. This is what I'm going to do today. And if I fall short, it's not the end of the world, but I try not to have that kind of, oh, my God, am I going to be able to do it? I don't know. You know, and if I really feel dread, if I really feel dread and I don't feel like I'm ready to do it, then I might take an extra day off and do it tomorrow. If it's really, if it really seems like it's going to be a big undertaking, which some, some sets are. Then once in a while, I might say, okay, let me just take another 24 hours. I'll do it tomorrow. Nice. I like that. I like that. I like that approach. How many days a week are you training currently? Three to four with the bells. And then I do strength and conditioning with a trainer who I was seeing in the city when I lived in the city. Now I see him. I go into the city maybe once a month to see him. Otherwise. And the city is New York City. The city is New York City. Now I live in Connecticut as of September. So I do once a month with him down in New York City. And otherwise remote here at home because you know travel gets to be too much. So I do, so three or four kettlebell sets a week, one strength and conditioning. And then I go to the gym and do some accessory work myself, like some hip work, some posterior shoulder work, a lot of ab work, and then some cardio myself. So I'd say in total, it's about nine to 10 hours a week, which is completely. Totally reasonable amount of training. Honestly, like that's not. That's not crazy. Like that's not three hours a day, you know, six days a week or anything. I used to do that. I was a fitness class junkie before I got into weightlifting. That's what I was doing. It was, it was, it was just maniacals. It was insane. Okay, so we got to talk about it because you put it out there. So we said we were going to be a little bit light on your background because you've done a lot of podcasts. And I don't want to retread a bunch of stuff that people can find another podcast with you. But give us the give us the, you know, the cliffs notes version of how to learn a climb and be the junkie. And when I was about 28 between 28 and 33, I started, I was taking classes. I started taking a row books at the local gym. I started taking step class and I started taking boxing. And on Saturday, and I'm single at this point. So I had lots of time. And then on Saturdays, I would go to the gym. And I would take this body sculpting class and then I would take a step class. Well, one day I had a really good cup of coffee and a friend of mine said, there's a boxing class at 10 o'clock. Well, this was after my two or eleven of these were after the body sculpting class and the step class. And they said, Oh, I want to take it. So I took the third class. And then the same boxing teacher then did after he did the aerobic boxing class. He did a heavy bag class. So then I started taking that class and literally for six years every Saturday, I was taking four classes every Saturday. And then like before when I get to the gym, I'd actually run a mile on the treadmill to warm up for the first class. And I was just a fitness class junkie. And then my conditioning was really, really could imagine when I was introduced to kettlebells, my conditioning was super, super was good. But I really didn't have the strength. So then I started lifting weights. But anyway, I've been there. And in my 30s, I remember taking these classes and thinking, how in the world am I going to maintain this? If this is what I want to do. And this is how I want to look. And there's no way I can sustain this for many more years, just because I don't have the time, not because I don't want to. I just am not going to have the time to dedicate to this. Well, fortunately then, kind of all this came and weightlifting came and then I realized, well, I don't have to work out 14 hours a week, you know, 15 hours a week. It was just, but it was fun while I did it. Yeah, for sure. So how did, who was it that introduced you to kettlebells? Like who gets credit for getting, for getting the legend into the sport? Like who gets that credit? So there was a gentleman, I moved to Lorna with my husband when we first got married, we lived there for two years, and then we came back to New York. But when I was in Lorna, I met a gentleman, his name was Adam Cronin. And Adam, I started training with Adam. And he was the co-founder of kettlebell concepts, unbeknownst to me. He started teaching me kettlebell fitness, figure eights, and presses, and cleans, and, you know, kettlebell fitness types of moves, Turkish get up, windmills, among other types of lifting, he taught me how to deadlift and how squat and all of these, you know, different types of lifting. And then he heard about a Russian kettlebell sport coach in California. And he said, you know, there's this competition called kettlebell, there's a kettlebell competition. I think you'd be really good at it because you're dedicated, you work out hard, you like to work, you know, your conditioning's good. So he made the introduction, or he told me about this gentleman, I called him and I went out to California, and he became my first coach. And he said, he said that he was hosting the first competition in the US with IGSF that was back in 2007. I'm hosting this in California in eight months. And I can coach you, I'd like you to compete and be on my team. And I said, well, if you believe in me and you think I can do well and not make a fool of myself, then I'll try it. So I trained with him remotely, he would send me my programs, and by then we moved back to New York. So he was sending me my programs, he wasn't a very good coach, I came to learn, but, you know, you don't know anything when you start out, so I didn't know from anything. Anyway, so he hosted this IGSF competition, and he didn't invest in electronic counters. So the judges were literally, you know, those cardboard, their numbers. Yeah, like the flip, like the flip boards, right? Yeah, yeah, it's two rings. Yeah, you take the number on your flip middle school, middle school basketball games for scorekeeping, because, you know, people are only going to make like 12 baskets of games, so you don't know the electronics. I don't know how in the world, they didn't. But at one point, fortunately, they counted all my reps, but they, but with the guy with the men, I don't remember if he was jerk along cycle, my husband's watching them. And he's looking at the numbers, one of the judges flipping, and he's like, this guy's losing reps, and my husband, out of nowhere, is like contesting these Russian judges, he's like, wait a minute, this guy's got five more reps than you're counting, and he noticed it right away. So it was really just, it was my first, but it was a good experience. And then after that I. So that's kind of the sport in the USA for the first time. Right. We're setting the bar pretty low. It was very, very low. It was very low. But then, you know, I, I want, I got the bug, and I kept training and. Did you win? Did, did you win? Did I? I want that one. Well, not, well, not really. I came in second in my weight category. But I made a PR, which was good. And then I came in first in my age category, but I wasn't competing against anybody else. Yeah, one of those. Yeah, it's one of those. So, but, you know, it was great. And it was really good experience. And I met a lot of people. And then it was onward from there. I just wanted to continue and see where I could go with it. Fast forward 14 years. And you're still, you're still kicking ass and taking names and breaking PRs and setting national records. So. Well, so you were there, you were there at the start for the US introduction to kettlebell sport. Where do you see the future of the sport going, right? Because that's a big, that's a big thing. Wow, that's such a good question. It's unfortunate that when kettlebells are mentioned on on social media or somebody's demonstrating the default kettlebell style is hard style. First, I just want to say that it's really a shame. I saw a post last week of a video of a young woman who's very capable, good teacher, saying kettlebell, she was coming down on kettlebell instructors. And she said, if you're a kettlebell instructor, then why are you teaching and demonstrating your swings with a single arm swings with rotation or your snatches with rotation. And why are you lifting your heels? Shouldn't be doing that. If we want to have, you know, qualified trainers and you're calling yourself a kettlebell instructor, then don't do this and do it this way. And I really wasn't clear on whether she who she was speaking to in terms of what style. So I messaged her or I posted on her post a response. I said, well, but you're aware that in kettlebell sport, we do lift one heel and we do use rotation. Oh, yes, I'm not talking to kettlebell sport. It's a different, it's a different intention. Okay, I get it. But when I demonstrate kettlebell sport movements or technique in my videos, I qualified as kettlebell sport. Here, this is the, these are techniques we're going to utilize. This is what I'm going to show you in order to have endurance in order to get your numbers up to compete or in order to just work your cardio. Right, you don't have to compete. But yet, when the hard style is demonstrate, it's like, this is how you're supposed to move a kettlebell. You know, well, no, and I know you've had these conversations with other lifters on your podcast before. So I'm not going to be laborate. But unfortunately, that's where we are now is that the default is the hard style, which is a style. It's a style for a certain purpose. It's not the, you know, okay, where do I see it going? I think what has to happen is there has to be a lot more publicity. If I had tons of money, I would hire PR firm to talk about kettlebell sport. And then I would try to get some connections with the corporations to take it on and talk about it and promote it. Just like what happened with Reebok and CrossFit. Because CrossFit was basically underground for a few years before the boxes started to really proliferate. Then it grew, memberships grew. Okay, it became a franchise great. But then it really exploded when Reebok. Yeah, through it on the actual stage, got it on ESPN too. Right. Yeah. So I think that's what has to happen with our sport. It's got to, I don't think it's going to be an organic slow growth. It's going to take way too long. It has to be, it has to be promoted. It has to be packaged a certain way. And then people will be excited about it. What are your thoughts on standardization of the weights and the standard, like the lifting standards, because one of the things that we're kind of running into is similar to what you see in boxing where it's like there are so many federations and there are so many different standards and there are so many organizations that people get confused because they're like, wait, you can get rank one in IKO with this output. But for KETA Academy, it's a different output. And for IKMF, it's a different stand, right? Like there's different weight classes. There's different standards, right? So what are your thoughts on on that on those dynamics? I think we should be doing whatever is going to take the sport further toward the Olympics. If it means that we need to create one federation with one, you know, with one set of rules, then that's where we should be going. I mean, what's our, what's our community's goal is it to get into the Olympics, is it to get it to be popular? Whatever is that's going to take as opposed to just starting your own organization and starting your own ranks. And well, you know, if your goal is to be a coach and to monetize the sport and to have your own thing, that's a good goal. But it's not working to take the sport much further. Yeah, I'm a rising tide floats all boats kind of person, right? And like the more standardized we are across the different federations, and to your point, getting the sport to the Olympics, that's only going to be good for everybody. Because if you are a coach trying to monetize, you know, the sport, well, then if people see it on the Olympics, they see it on TV. Guess what, suddenly awareness of kettlebell sport goes up by, you know, 100 million people overnight because because now suddenly people are like, oh, there's a sport where you compete with kettlebells. And it's not this thing where you're having to explain to people, oh, no, hard style isn't the only way to move a kettlebell. Actually, there's this whole tradition that goes back, you know, 40 years of people actually competing in this right and having that, you know, try to take kettlebell sport conversation over and over and over again. You know, so I'm, but I struggle with that, like that interpersonal dynamic and the politics and everything, because I try and stay out of the politics of the different federations, because I don't like it. But at the same time, there's like, you can't lead if you refuse to engage either. So there's a part of me that's like, all right, you know, at some point somebody's going to have to come in and unify people and say, like, hey, let's all agree. Like you said, let's all agree on what the goal is. And if we're all like, if we're all for kettlebell sport and we want to see it grow. Then it needs to be people need to be aware, well, how can we raise awareness standard, standardized standards and get it into the Olympics, right? But it's who standards. That's the question. It's like, who standards everybody wants it to be their standards. You know, that's the difference. I have no ego about it. I don't care who standards. I just want them to be standards. And I wanted to be makes sense. Like to me, I think the thing that makes the most sense in my opinion, this is the first time I've articulated this on the podcast. But what makes the most sense to me is you look at USA powerlifting as an example to follow, because they have one federation, US APL, that that everybody agrees is kind of the standard for powerlifting, right. They have standardized length and dimensions for the barbells. They have a men's length for the barbell and a women's length for the barbell. I think there should be two dimensions, one for men, one for women, right. And we standard. I don't care what those standards are. We can have that discussion about what's what makes the most sense for the most lifters, right. And talk about those things. What what makes the most sense for the weight classes. What are the right standards from a reps and sets and all that great. We're all smart people. We can come have those conversations and come to some level of consensus. But first we have to agree on we need standards. And what are the what are the standards that we're going to pursue. And I think we can use that as a model to then work towards standardization. And then that gets us legitimacy, right. You have to have standards for the equipment. You have to have standards for the rankings. You have to have standards for the weight classes, like those types of things. So that when the Olympic Committee decides to assess it, it's easy for them. You don't have to make them do that work themselves because they're not going to. They're going to be like, come back when you're serious. We agree with you. And they are looking at it. The IC is looking considering its under consideration, which is a huge deal. And we should follow the template set by the weightlifting community. They've already done it. We're a weightlifting sport. So we don't need to reinvent the wheel. There should be different standards for the bell handles for men and women, just like they're over the barbells. I totally agree with you. See, we're making progress. We're figuring things out. So, yeah. Well, so how do you so, aside from getting it into the into the Olympics, what what else are like the things that you see. So taking the marketing component aside because I completely agree with you, where do you see the sport going as far as what do you know, what do you think people are going to be able to do from an output standpoint because every time I turn on YouTube or Facebook or whatever, like I see somebody putting up a new PR, a new world record and it like I'm just I'm amazing. It's pretty insane. It's pretty insane. I think women's the lifting weights for the weights for women's lifts will probably be increased to 28 at some point. And maybe also the men's why not or it's got to be an increase of time. So I think the first thing will be an increase of the weights and maybe we'll get into more triathlon events. Being, you know, jerk snatch and then long cycle things like that. I love I love hate the triathlon. Like I I signed up for the for the for a 10 minute triathlon in the end of February. And I'm to your early conversation. There's a there's a little bit of dread. Like I'm sure I'm going to be able to do a full 10 minute triathlon. But I'm going to give it the old I'm going to give it the old college try. We'll see. I think Roy's going to push it forward. Well, getting back to my first couple of competitions with I GSF women were only about 25% of the lifting populace. Yeah. And back then the women could only in I GSF before this was before Fedor ankle created his competitions or maybe at the same time that I hadn't gone to them yet. I'd only done the I GSF competitions. And women were only allowed to do snatch. There was no long side, you know, jerk or long cycle for women yet. And then they were only lifting the 16 kg back in 2007, 2008. So look how far we've come in 13, 14 years already. Pretty great. It's it is I mean, it is great. The progress. But I most there's part of me that's like I still see some of the baked in patriarchy. Yes. It bothers the shit out of me really, really, really bothers me. And you still see some of those attitudes and some of those things, you know, you still see athletes or certain coaches that push their female athletes to do one arm long cycle. And compete in one in one bell events. And I'm like, why? I don't understand like I don't understand like how can you watch, you know, Kim Fox and be like, yeah, you, you know, girls shouldn't lift the big bells. I have no idea what what goes through people's minds if they're if they're limiting a woman like that. If she wants to do it, she should find another coach. Yeah, I it is it is diminishing significantly because of because of, you know, women like you and women like him. And you know, there's so many, there's so many phenomenal, so many phenomenal female lifters out there. Absolutely. That's really where you see the boundaries being pushed the most maybe because they had the most to go. Right. They had the most space to grow. But you're really like you really seeing women just pushing the boundaries higher and higher and higher all the time. And it's it's so cool to see. And I love like I love showing it to my daughter. My daughter's got a pretty good long cycle already. She's she's six. So she's she's six right now. And that's a great time to start. Yeah. Yeah. And they, you know, they just I've got their their bells from Moses, right. They've got their little their little youth bells, which is which is awesome. That's another another huge part of it. I think what are your thoughts on like youth when how do we start a youth movement? That's such a great question. I love Moses bells. The kids bells are so well balanced and they're comfortable. I love their fantastic. I can't see enough about his bells. He did a really great thing by probably bringing them and making them. I'm going to be bringing a children's kettlebell course to Chelsea Pierce here in Connecticut. I presented to them. They're like they're very interested. I might bring some kettlebell sport for adults too. But the children's program I'm really excited about because that's the next generation. I mean we need to start training some kids and really getting kids serious about and understanding the benefits and the transfer to other activities, whether it's soccer, ice hockey, swimming, whatever, just confidence, posture. Yeah. You know all of that it transfers and get them to appreciate the magnificence of this sport. I'm really excited. So we might think once COVID slows down a little bit and more people can do. Classroom events. We're going to be bringing that to Chelsea Pierce. So I'm super excited about that. And yeah, we need to grow the youth teams absolutely. Yeah, I'm really excited to hear that you're doing that. It's one of those things that I have not really done any significant effort with youth. Like a part of it is I think I'm a little scared to do it. I'm like because I'm not not because not because I am I have experienced coaching youth youth sports like I coach you know youth football and things like that. That's part of what makes me scared to go that direction because I know parents. I know parents and it's it gets a little. Oh yeah, the kids are great. The parents. I didn't even consider that the parents. Oh my god. It's like the horror was like. It's right. Sometimes it's sometimes it's it's one of those things where like there's there's no winning. Right. And I was like my like my my problem when I was coaching youth football it was like if we want all of the games, but not everybody played, I have I have parents that are mad at me. If we lose all if we lose all the games, then I've got parents being like why is that kid playing, you know, and it's like they're six graders, right. Like it's not about winning or losing at this point. We're just trying to foster a love of the game and build discipline and fitness and you know those types of things. But that, you know, like it was just there was no way like if we if we started tackling on the first day that we could do contact. Then I had some parents that were concerned that we were tackling too soon. And I made the decision to not do tackling on the first day that we could legally do it one one season. I was like, no, we're going to progress. You're going to earn your helmet. Basically is what I told them. So we started in shoulder pads without helmets practicing form. We're talking six and seventh graders. Right. And I had parents calling me the after that practice telling me we weren't doing the right thing reported me to the league commissioner telling me that telling me that I, you know, our kids aren't going to be prepared for contact because we're not doing it from day one. And I'm like, I'm trying to keep kids safe here. Like if you've not been reading the news about concussions and all those. So I was like, I've honestly got out of coaching football all together because of. There's absolutely no appreciation. Very little appreciation. And you're you're the expert. And yet, you know, all the parents know better than you as to what you should do. And no matter what you do or who you try to please, you're not going to please every day. This is how we did, you know, like, you know, you get you get that. So I think I have I have a little baggage when it comes to. Understandable. Understandable. Yeah. So do you know where the name kettlebell comes from? No. This is fascinating. So I reached a research many years ago because I said, what where the hell? Because people even I couldn't remember the name when I first heard it. I kept calling it Kettles. I couldn't remember the name kettlebell because it's so unusual. And then I find most people can't remember either. They call it kettlebells or those metal things. So I was doing some research. And the legend has it that back centuries ago, when the big church bells were wrong, right. They were attached, the bells were attached to ropes that were threaded through police. Some of these bells weighed as much as three tons and it required a team of men who were very strong and very skilled and coordinated to ring the bells pulling on the ropes to make the sound, right. The church on Sundays. So in order for these church bell ringing men to perfect their skills and coordination, they would actually practice in another area of the church. Now the practice bells did not have a clapper this way they weren't making sound. They were just pulling and strengthening their abs and their lats, right. So they're practicing their timing of the pulling without the clapper. So they put the clappers to the side or they put them outside the church. Now local people who wanted to do some strength training would take these clappers and use them as weight lifting equipment and they became known as dumb bells because now the bell is dumb doesn't make sound because you've taken the clapper out. Okay, so then the next story goes or the advancement of the story goes that strong men and athletes used to utilize old cooking kettles and they would take them to fill them with lead shot or sand and they became these load adjustable weights that they could swing and press and toss around. These became known as kettlebells. I did not know that. That is a fact that it's it's hard to out and to out nerd me on something kettlebell related and that is awesome. It's really cool. The story I had not heard before that the dumbbell comes from the church bells. Yeah, it's fascinating. It's a fascinating history. So now when you say when somebody says kettlebell, you can say well no, it's a kettlebell like dumbbell because that's their synonymous. Well, now I have a story to tell them to us as to where it came from. Exactly. Very interesting. That is that is fantastic. That is awesome. You know you speaking of dumbbells, you do a lot of training outside of kettlebells like it's not your it's not your only thing in a particularly with your athlete. I shouldn't say your athletes with your clients, right? Some of them are your athletes, but like with your with your clients, you know, as a PT, you're not just like a one trick pony. You don't just use kettlebells for everything, right? You're very you you use a wide variety of every train. Tell us a little bit about your training philosophy with with that. Oh, yeah. Well, my training philosophy is we're going to I really like my clients to keep an open mind and be curious about what they can do each day. So we are going to go through a full warm up. We're going to get you a little cardio and maybe a little power work depending on your goals, depending on your ability, depending on your age. We're going to do a full body workout and then at the end we lose some assistance drills. I have clients who are in their 20s and I have a gentleman who's 83 years old and he can swing the 24 kilogram kettlebell like nobody's business. He's unbelievable. I want to be that guy. I work with him four days a week for five years now. He's incredible. And he's still trying to get his time down with the rower. He's got his best is 500 meter row at two minutes. And every time he does a 500 meter row, I do different increments of rows with him. But every time he does it, he's trying to get he's trying to beat his 200s. He's doing it still. So you know, it's it's a delay to work with him, but I work with all ages, all levels and a little kettlebell work if they want if they don't want it. You know, talk to them about it a little bit, but I don't I don't push the kettlebells and that's my thing. If they don't want to do it, it's absolutely fine. I work with my clients based on what they want and what their goals are and then we're going to train accordingly. That's fantastic. So you're saying you're across all ages and ability levels. Is there is there an avatar or is it really just like you work with all sorts of like all sorts of people different goals weight loss weight gain strength. Like, or is there like a particular area that you're that you're mostly focused on strength endurance conditioning. And I especially love to work with people 40 and over because that's, you know, I didn't start working out really hard till I was about 34. Because I had really bad asthma, even into my early, even when I was taking classes, start taking classes in my 20s, the asthma was kicking my butt. So I didn't really start training and earnest till my mid 30s. So I know what it's like to, you know, to have goals and to work and to learn and to have lifestyle and things in life to come into play and having to consider that. So I like to work with a little bit of the older, older generation. You should get a hold of that Tom Brady guy. I hear he's up there. He's getting up there in age, but he's still pretty good. He's a magnificent. He's going to work on a room for him. I'm not going to say, but no, actually, actually, I wasn't rooting for him. I was like, you know, give somebody also chance. And so you're actually echoing kind of my feelings on Tom Brady. But there's no denying he's magnificent. You can't deny it. Like you just as a, you know, as an observer, you have to recognize the greatness, right? Like it's crazy how great he is. But like, I'm like, when he first came in the league and he took over the job from from blood. So, and I was like, I loved him at Michigan. And I hated that he lost his job at Michigan and then like, and then he came and took the job from blood. And then he went and won a Super Bowl. And I was like, this is awesome. What a great story. Six-round pick underdog, right? And then he continues to ascend and like, just works his butt off. I love this guy. He's fantastic. Like he's just, he's going to make the most of his talent, right? And all of that. And I loved all of that. And then he beat the Eagles in the Super Bowl when I was in, when I was in college and that crushed me. And so then I started not like him so much. And then now it's just, I'm like, I'm like, all right, I wanted to see my home. I wanted to see the kind of the torch past the homes a little bit. But, you know, like, I still, I'm, well, I'm, I'm a horror for greatness, though, too. Like, I love seeing, I love seeing greatness. Like, it's just great to witness. And like, when you watch him play, it's, it's just crazy that I'm like, to do it for so long at such a high level. And how dedicated he is. And, you know, his mindset, like, he's, he's dedicated his life to the level he's achieved. And I also love the fact that he says, you know, no matter what I'm never going to make as much money as my wife, so it doesn't really matter what they pay. And he's only humbly factor. But no, there's no denying his greatness. He's, he's astoundingly just an unbelievable person, unbelievable athlete. Yeah. Yeah, he really is. He really is. And I'm always super impressed with his, his mindset component. Right. That, that's such a thing that that's, that I'm really big on studying and trying to learn from. How do you approach mindset with, with the sport? Like, because you, I have the stuff that I read from you on your social media, like, I love the way that you articulate things. I love your perspective on things and how you, like, you kind of call bullshit, but you do it in such a nice way. You do it in such a nice way. But you, like, how do you approach, how do you approach your mindset to training? What are you training still in your clients? Like, how do you, how do you approach mindset? I think the first thing is, like I said, to remain curious, not to say, well, last week, I didn't fulfill my goal. So, you know, that's going to affect today or yesterday, I was perfect. So today is going to be perfect. I'm just coming into each training day or each workout day with a curiosity. How do I feel today? What's my motivation? How does my body feel? Do I feel tired? What's that from? Or do I feel unmotivated? Maybe I don't feel tired, but I just don't really want to do this today. That's okay. Just feel it. And you know, but we've got work to do. You know, are you distracted? What's distracting you? How can we put that to the side for an hour or so? And just checking in and being truthful to yourself and to your trainer, I'm truthful to my trainer. I expect people to be truthful to me. And that's about it. And then I don't compete with, I look at other people's numbers, but I'm not competing with anybody else. I'm really trying to get myself better each and every day, not just with sport in many ways, as a friend, as a wife, as a human being. I'm trying every day to do something better. A little just a little bit better. So. How has sport helped you with that? How has Kenable sport helped you with that? Well, you know, the longer I'm in the sport, the more humble I feel. When I first started and I won, whether whatever competitions I won the first couple of years, I was just so, like, it's just totally different intention. Like, look at me, I did this, and oh my God, I'm so good. And, you know, it was important for me to say, look what I did. Now, I still say, look what I did, but it's, it's from a different place. It's like a place of, you know, a possession. But really putting the time and the thought and the problem solving problem solving for me in this sport, especially with snatch has been huge. And I have pages, pages of documents on, on different things I've tried, I've tried every single iteration of snatch from different shoes to different stands to different breathing to different reps, watching clock to not watching the clock. The way I insert to the acceleration pull to the way I drop to the this to the that I've done every iteration possible. And I figured out what works for me that. Can you send me that list because I need it. Years, years, because every time I saw somebody else, well, especially before this year, where I feel like I've come into a nice, nice place, a nice groove. Prior to that, it was like, well, maybe if I did this like that, maybe if I did that, it was always problem solving experimenting to the point of madness where I'd be trying to go to sleep. And I think, well, maybe if I inserted this way. And then I'd get up and I'd take my 12 kg and it's start practicing with and I start making notes. And the next day I'd have to do a half an hour of it to see how it feels before my real set. So it's just, it's just obsessive, but, but it made me really humble. And, you know, it's the confidence, but it's the nowadays reaching the goals. It's not such a high. It just feels satisfying. It's like, okay, I knew I could do it. I worked for it. I did it. And it's satisfying. It's like finding the perfect greeting card for your mom. It's like finding the perfect parking space after way. That's a very New York experience, circling around circling around looking for the parking space, then you get it and you're like, oh, that's good. That's how it feels now. So it's very different from when it's just different. But it's synonymous with a lot of things in life. Patients thinking things through knowing that today, if you're not so good today, doesn't mean not going to be good tomorrow. It's also asking other people what they think. So it's so much of it translates into and a lot of it is not about the body for me. It's like, yeah, I take care of my body. Yeah, I do my strength and conditioning. That all goes into it. But so much of it is the attitude and the approach and then what the sport gives back in terms of the feedback about who you are. It's interesting. You know, years ago, maybe six, five, six years ago, I had hit a plateau with the 24 KG. And I was trying to break through. And no matter what I was doing, it wasn't working. So I was looking at a couple of other female lifters and I saw them very smooth style looked effortless, very smooth, very hypnotic. And I was like, oh, maybe I should just be like that more relaxed because I'm more like frantic and snappy. And so then I tried to do that relaxed style and I tried that for months, maybe a year. And I was able to do it a little bit, but it wasn't. It wasn't my natural bodies way. So my brain said, let's do this body. Let's change it up and see if you can get better. Well, I didn't get better. And then when I went back to my own energetic way, my snappy way, I want to get in and out of the movement quickly. So I just started working with that again and making different changes and having a new coach and blow up. Then it started to come together. And now I can be snappy, use the energy the way my body wants to move with the bell. And then I'm able to find the relaxed relaxation within my snappy approach. That's fantastic. So it's important for each lifter to find their own way and don't try to fight it. If you want to move in a certain way, then if your body is prone to doing it that way, then just stick with that and try to find the nuances within that movement. I love that. I love that. I try and encourage my athletes to experiment and iterate and I try and not be too diagnostic about what they what the way they should do it because I'm a very big proponent of bio individuality is very much a thing. There is no one right way to do it. There's your right way to do it. And we've got to find what what that is and that requires test and iteration for sure. Correct. It really does. And when you're looking at other lifters, you think you see something that they're doing. Often times it's it's not what they're actually doing elaborate on that. What do you mean, give me an example, because I think I understand what you're saying, but give me an example to make sure I'm rocking what you're saying. So for example, when when somebody drops the bell, when somebody's lowering the bell, you know, it may look like they're spinning it like they're spinning the bell and then catching it. Whereas they're they're not they're actually letting it the bell might stop at the they're fixating at the at the side of the rest. But then as they lower the arm, the bell is turning on its own by virtue of gravity. But to the eye to the viewers, I it looks like the belt the lifter's spinning the bell and they're not. They're just letting they're just letting gravity do its work, but it looks it looks like it's there that they are spinning it, but all they did was internally rotate their hand and the center gravity of the belt took over. Correct. And they stayed out of its way. Correct. So there's a lot of that like you think you're seeing what the lifter's doing. You try to emulate it, but it's not always the case that you're they're doing what you think they're doing. And that's also very could be very frustrating. Yes. Yeah. I love that. I love that. That's like I think that's such a huge lesson, especially for new lifters like to not try and don't try and emulate anyone's particular style. Like you said, test and try different things. Try and don't try and recreate somebody else's style because I made that mistake as a new lifter like I was going to try and lift like so and so and like, you know, like, no, no, I'm not, I'm not that guy. No, that's not me. I can't do that. Right. It's hard not to do that. You're like, oh my god, she's so good. He's so amazing. And it looks so effortless. You know, he's doing this or she's doing that this way. Maybe I should try it. But yes, try everything. But then, you know, take note of what feels good and what doesn't make sure that what feels good. Just try to stick with that. And awareness that. Yeah. I think that's, yeah, I think that's great advice. You said that you mentioned that you've learned a lot. The sport has taught you a lot about yourself mentally. So what would you say is like the number one thing that it's taught you about yourself over the course of your career? The main thing is to. Well, it's really hard to care less about the results. The closer the closer you get to competition for me, the less I have, I try to care, but it's really tough. But if I go in caring, I'm going to be super stressed and I'm going to be in my head, which happens a lot. And it's that's that's no absolutely no good. Yeah, stay out of there. It's scary in there. Stay out of the head, especially in competition day. So I try to just go into my body and feel feel what I'm doing and let my body know what do what it knows how to do. If I can do that, then it's a piece of cake. The hardest part for me is just getting out of the head and getting out of, you know, I'm here to compete. I'm getting out of getting out of that. If I can just relax and let my body do what it does, then I'm good. So when you're in that when you're in that when you're in that mindset, right, when you get when you get to that flow state. Are you on the platform by yourself, even though there's people on platforms next to you, or is it just you and the bell and nothing else exists? Or are you always mindful of what else is it like? I've heard some people say like no matter what they're always like in the room, right? And I've heard other people say like, yeah, when I get into it, like it's just like it's just me, it doesn't I could be in a room, an empty room, I could be in a stadium, it doesn't matter. I think it's like a meditation where you're completely focused on what you're doing, but you're also aware that there are people watching and you're aware you can hear your, you know, your fellow lifters breathing or you can hear what they're doing. So you're aware, but you're aware of what's going on, but you're hyper focused on what's going on with your activity. I don't feel like I'm in a vacuum, but I, but just hyper aware. Interesting. That's really, that's really, really interesting. That's one of my, like it took me a long time to ever get there with snatch, but now that's one of my favorite things about snatch was it was my like it was I'm not going to lie like I hated it for a long time. Like I hated it. I avoided snatch practice. I avoided it. I avoided it. But now like you get to a certain point when you get the it's kind of like golf, right? Like when you get the, you get that one rep that flies up there and you like like, oh my god, that was beautiful. What did I do? Right, but it's that one is that one rep that gets you coming back because you're like, I know I can make that feel effortless. I know I can do it where it doesn't feel like work. Like you try and you try and increase the frequency that you get those like those reward reps I call them, right? Those are the like the reward reps are really what keep you coming back. That's right. I love the snatch now. That's right. I was in terms of what it also teaches is I just like I think it's with any sport or any flow state that you get out of yourself. You get out of your conscious mind. It's the same with anything. It could be golf. It could be any sport. It could be meditation or jogging whatever it is. It just gets you out of your own mind and it's with different realm. And that's also what I crave. So if it wasn't kettlebell sport, it could be boxing. It could be jump rope. It could be some other activity. But I happen to find a find it in snatch. I like being in another state of mind where I'm struggling and I'm trying to get through. I'm trying to let my body do its thing and get through the struggle and get out of the way. And I like that challenge. Yeah. Well said. I love that. I love that. That's fantastic. So what's what's next for you? Like what's next on what's next on the horizon? Well, a couple of things. So the group IKS F.A. XFA is a fabulous educational kettlebell sport educational organization created by a dear friend of mine. I don't know if you know him. Alexander Alexander case and Alexander passed away in August of he had a brain hemorrhage, a sudden brain hemorrhage. He was one of my dearest friends. And he started IKS F.A. back in 2011 to bring world champions together to teach kettlebell sport worldwide. And they also hosted competitions. And in 2011, Alexander put together a group of coaches. There was the three Sarah Gays, there was Sarah Gamer Coolin, Sarah Richinski, Sarah Rudnav, there was Denis Vasilev, there was Mishin, there was Anton and Asenko. And there were about 25 or 30 students from around the world. And we all met in St. Petersburg, Russia. And we had a training camp for a week. And we did a lift for about it was unbelievable. We lifted, we learned the lips, we did accessory drills and we learned about coaching and programming. So we did this for about five days and we lifted for about five hours. Then we retreat to the hotel to change. And then each evening we would have an excursion or a tour in St. Petersburg. That will never happen again. There were so many people, there were so many, my peers and the coaches, you know, a lot of us have gone our own ways, started our own organizations, but the way he brought everyone together back when kettlebell sport was fairly new to the country. I don't see that happening again. It was a really special special time. So me and Sarah Rudnav and Alexander's wife Lorna, we are bringing expo courses now online during the pandemic. And we're starting to we're going to roll it out in a couple months, we're just getting everything together and online. And we're going to start in the North America. So it'll be live on zoom, all the courses live once a week, three hours each segment. We're going to learn clean jerk snatch long cycle and then some kettlebell fitness movements also. So we're going to be doing this. There'll be CEOs included. And so we're going to keep expo alive. And then when we can, we're going to also travel for input live courses in person. But right now we're going to do it online so that everybody can keep up can learn kettlebell sport. Fantastic. Well, when that's ready to go on you, if you have a link to share with me, let me have it and I'll make sure that's in the show notes, because that's that's fantastic. I didn't have I didn't have the pleasure of meeting Alexander when he was when he was alive, but I I knew of him obviously from having been in the in the sport for so long and haven't been in the I never had the chance to the chance to meet him, but I know I know the IK SFA, you know, you know, and it's a fantastic it's a fantastic organization. It is. That's that's awesome. And I like, I wish I had a time machine to go back and be part of that. That that was really phenomenal. We had a great, great time. Yeah, Alex Alex was one of the most supportive and influential people in my kettlebell sport career. And he was just a person, he was a type of person who told you, the honest truth, like what he thought, but he never, he never put me down, he never put people down. You know, he was from Ukraine, he spoke plainly wicked sense of humor. I mean, great guy. And just, it just really a huge loss, a huge loss, but yeah, he was definitely, it definitely rang out when it happened like, I mean, you know, probably 70% of my friends on Facebook are kettlebell people and it was like, I mean, the tributes were the tributes were, the tributes were. They were heartwarming and like, and I never, like I said, I never, I never actually knew him and I still was like finding myself tearing up and getting emotional, seeing the things that people were writing about him and sharing the stories they were sharing about him, you just he sounded like he was a fantastic human. He really was a special person. He was. And then secondarily, I am creating Lorna fit. That's my brand and creating streaming workouts by membership. They're going to be kettlebell fitness workouts with the 15 to 25 pound bell and also bodyweight workouts that so I'm producing that now and that's going to go live probably in April. So all the videos and the members of the access from my site, because I'm tired of seeing, you know, 20 year old women with their perfect little butts doing 100 bridges, 100 kickbacks and saying, okay, this is how you get booty. Instagram, the Instagram girl said, this is how you get glutes. So, you know, I want to speak to the women 40s and 50s and over and, you know, I'm not just them, but I want to speak to them and say, no, you don't have to get on the floor and on your knees and do all these freaking, you know, hydrants and kickbacks. And let me show you how to do it. Let me show you how I can help you and inspire you to work out. And we're going to have fun and make it happen. That sounds awesome. Congratulations. That's I'm sure that's been, that's been, that's been a lot of a lot of effort. Is that been your, that's your quarantine hobby was, I'm going to watch my own, my own online fitness brand. Yes, yes, I bought you know what, I have a, I don't know if it's a detriment to my personality or any if it's a, if it's a, you know, a good thing or not, but it's probably the double edged sword. It's probably both. It's a double edged sword. I, when I make a decision, I jump in even I know I do what I'm doing. I have no idea, I bought lights, I bought umbrellas. I had didn't have enough light for a certain room, I was filming and so I bought another light and waited three more days for it to come to film. You know, and I'm just, I'm just going by, I'm learning as I go and that's how I do it. I just, that's how I do it. But it's going to be fun. Yeah. That's awesome. So I got, I got asked, was the idea already, was the idea already in development prior to prior to COVID happening or was this like a, COVID happened and you're like, I had the idea and this seemed like the perfect time to do it or. More the latter, more, you know, COVID happened and I delayed doing these videos, these video workouts for a while. But then again, I just, I don't think there are enough. Instructors in my age category that are, that are leading women to, to, to work out. And so I want to, I want to be a voice for them and inspire them and get them to, to, to work out and work out properly. And, you know, yeah, that is awesome. I'm, I'm so excited for you. Like, that is, that is fantastic. I know that's, I know that's a, I know that's a, I know that's a, not a small undertaking to, to do those things right and kudos to you for just being like, well, I'm going, I'm going to feed in, right? You're doing the same thing. That kind of, not, kind of. I'm, yeah, this is, this is, this is a lot less, this is a lot less than that. Yeah, it's fun. It'll be fun. Let's, I'm working out anyway. I like creating movements. I'm always thinking of movements that I can create for my clients, whether it's body weight movements or dumbbell. I'm always trying to come up with something creative and new or whether bear positions. Like, how can we make this bear position different or pulling things and just be creative? So I'm always thinking of that and writing it down. And now it's just time to put it on video and, and help other people who might want to work out with me. So fantastic. I love it. Yeah. I'm so, I'm very excited for you. Okay, well, I want to be respectful of your time. We blocked an hour. We're, we're almost up up against it. So this is the, the last question, but it's one of my favorites to ask people, especially, especially a kettlebell sport athletes who are as accomplished as you. So if you were starting over again, or you got young, young Lorna, right, and you could give her one piece of advice, or you've got a brand new lifter, and you could give them one piece of advice to be successful in kettlebell sport. Like the thing that you wish you knew when you started, what would be that thing that you would tell that new lifter or, you know, young Lorna back, back, you know, 15 years ago when she first picked up a bell. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. I think I would say, be, be patient. Just, you know, really be patient. If you want to go far with it, be patient. If you don't want to go forward that that's fine too. You want to do one competition, one and done. That's, that's absolutely fine. But I think patience is the main thing to stick to it and be patient. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I love that. That's great advice. Lorna, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. I've so thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I'm so looking forward to seeing all of the things that you do. I can't wait until we can travel again. And get together and be on a platform. You know, I've never met you in person. And I've been watching, I've been watching you live for, for years. So I'm really looking forward to finally getting a chance to meet you in person. So thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. It's an honor to be here. Thank you for asking me. Yeah, of course. Have a great night. Thank you so much. We'll talk soon. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of the platform podcast. I'm Jordan Kunde-Wright, right? If you have a question, please email me at twincities kettlebell club at gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at twincities kettlebell club on Twitter at tckbclub online at twincities kettlebellclub.com. And please help us grow our reach and give us a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time.